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SSA Relationships 30 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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After a little bit more reading, the waters become murky again.

There are a lot of conflicting arguments on what sort of relationship two Catholic SSA people can have.

Reading more posts on http://forums.catholic.com, the advice is that people with SSA are expected to live according to the Church’s teachings and carry their cross of chastity. Not only that, but we are expected to live alone, but know that we aren’t really alone as we have God in our lives.

There are, however examples out there, that prove two Catholic SSA people can live together, in a chaste lifestyle. David Morrison’s life is an example of such a relationship. He calls it friendship, but I still think it is more than this. 

Discussion on Dreadnought also seems to indicate there is room for two SSA people to share an intense, close relationship, while not involving sexual acts. He sites an example of such close friendship between John Henry Cardinal Newman and Ambrose St. John.

Likewise, an example of two saints, St Sergius and St Bacchus, is mentioned on the Acceptance Sydney website.

I go back to my argument that God created a companion for Adam so that he would not be alone. I don’t think he ever intended man to be alone, we are not made that way. And yes, he has created people with SSA. I have been created this way. It obviously can’t be a mistake. But even so, I still require that close companionship that heterosexual people call marriage.

Update later:

Lindsey over at *! [emphatic asterisk] has written an interesting piece today on Attraction and Potential. Her point is that while physical attraction may play a part in two people getting together, there has to be a lot more for it to become anything meaningful, and all people, homosexual or heterosexual, need and want that more meaningful aspect in their lives.

On a side note, I have to add, this last week has been deeply encouraging. I have had a few people contact me through this website. It helps to know that one is not alone out there. For those who find this blog and are burdened, I hope that it brings you some comfort, and helps to answer some of the questions that don’t seem to have answers. 

God Bless,

Josh

Another story: Catholic and Gay – Thoughts on the essential nature of love 29 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in Stories, homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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Hi all,

I just wanted to draw your attention to this article I came across, written by David Morris. As I’m not sure I can republish it here, I have provided an excerpt and highly recommend you read the whole article.

I came to chastity because I loved my partner so much. I’m a veteran of a 17-year-long committed relationship with another man. It’s a deep friendship, and it has been since almost the moment we met. It was sexually active for the first seven years, and then—after I became a Christian, after I began reflecting on what Scripture and tradition had taught for 2,000 years—I went to my partner and said, “I love you. Can we please stop having sex?”

A good article which reflects on the non-sexual parts of a close relationship. Proof that SSA people can and do have meaningful, long term, and if not , life long relationships.

More on same-sex cohabitation – Can SSA Catholics live together? 27 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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In my constant search for understanding, I have joined a Catholic forum. Here is my query, and the very kind Fr. Vincent has replied so quickly.

sydcatholic80 May 25, ‘08 11:54 pm

 


  

How does a Catholic with same sex attraction cope with loneliness?
 
I have done much soul searching, and reading on the internet.
I accept what the Catholic Church says through the Catechism on this issue. I can accept that in upholding my faith, the Catholic Church teaches I must be celibate (as is the case for anyone who is not married). This does not trouble me.     

What is troubling me, and there does not seem to be answer on this point, can two Catholics who are homosexual live together in a relationship that is celibate, but filled with love and closeness? Is this sort of relationship acceptable?

It is a frightening thought to have to spend the rest of my life alone, and I am praying hard. Is my outlook so bleak? Did God intend for me to have to live my life alone?

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Joshua

Fr. Vincent Serpa May 26, ‘08 1:12 pm

 


  

Re: Being Catholic and Homosexual
 
Dear Joshua,     

That’s a great name you have there! The Church would frown on two people of the same sex with same sex attraction living together because it could easily be an occasion of sin for them. It would be safer it one of them did not have same sex attractions. But living with someone is no guarantee against loneliness. One can be surrounded be people and be lonely. On the other hand, one can live alone and not be lonely. The key lies in the difference between loneliness and solitude. People try to flee from loneliness, but actually seek solitude. 

For the Christian, solitude is not just the absence of the commotion and activity of the crowd. It is the state of being alone while realizing that one is not alone. It comes from confronting loneliness by going inside and finding that God has been there all along. This is what the contemplative does. Reflecting on Good Friday and confronting the pain that our Savior endured for us is to begin to know what it means to be loved. It is to know the Companion of our lives who never leaves us excluded and alone. I encourage you to spend time before the tabernacle in His Eucharistic presence. You may contact me privately here by clicking on my name if you want to discuss this further. You are in my prayers.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

I can understand the points he has put to me, and I plan to reflect on this. I notice, just like in my last post, that there is no scriptural basis, or Church law that prevents two people to live chaste lives together.

It might be “frowned upon”, but the Church leaves room for ones own conscience for guidance in matters where there is no explicit direction. 

updated later:

I have also seen reference to creating scandal. I must say, why do we worry what our neighbour does? We cannot see into his heart and mind to know what their intent is, so how can we judge them? Should we be judging them? God is ultimately our judge. Jesus also said, remove the stake from your own eye, before removing the splinter from your brothers eye. If two people are living together, we shouldn’t be presuming sin. Even the law of the land has a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Life is a constant battle with sin and temptation. In reflecting on my life to date, this is very true. Now with my eyes more open than they have been for some time, I am more aware of myself, and I pray each day to remain in a state of grace. 

I know I have the internal fortitude, and with my prayers, and those of my friends, family and church community, and knowing the love of God, I can overcome my temptations.

I believe though, that love is something God gave us all, and Jesus demonstrated that love repeatedly while on this earth, and through His ultimate sacrifice for us. I do not believe that my love for another is sinful. And I don’t believe He would lead me into a life of loneliness. My own conscience tells me I am capable of loving someone deeply in a chaste way. My own conscience tells me two people can love and support each other in this way. This world does not care for those who are alone, how is it fair to expect someone to then to have to live alone? I don’t believe God would condemn me for seeking out a companion for life.

I’m not trying to be provocative, nor disrespectful or disobedient to the Catholic Church and Her teachings, but I am merely trying to raise some discussion on a point, and discover the answers to my questions.

I think debate is a healthy mechanism in discovering the truth.

Well those are my thoughts for today. Always happy for comments.

Should SSA Catholic’s Have Boyfriends? – Thread on the Facebook group “Dreadnoughters” 27 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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I decided to take a peek at John Heard’s group “Dreadnoughters” on Facebook. It has a discussion board, and I think it is fostering a lot of healthy debate on topical issues.

I found this thread “Should SSA Catholics Have Boyfriends?“.

I feel, given what was discussed here, that there is hope for SSA Catholic’s seeking to have fulfilling and holy relationships.

Erik Huntzicker had this to say at the end of the thread:

“People, and institutions, can be wrong.”

But God cannot be wrong. Catholics believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, i.e. God, and therefore entrusted it with the guardianship of His truth. The moral teaching of the Church – especially when seen as also guided by the Holy Spirit – is therefore not seen as a human invention, an institutional behavior code, but as the command of God himself.

Therefore, if one stipulates to the divinity of Christ and to the fact the He founded the Catholic Church, then the Church’s teachings MUST be viewed as authoritative.

This does not mean that the Church has something to say on every little detail of life. For instance, it is clear that the Church teaches homogenital sex to be wrong. But the Church is silent on whether two men who are homosexually inclined can live together in chastity for the purposes of mutual love and support. In these cases the Church teaches the Christian to invoke prudential judgment and use his conscience – hopefully well formed – to make the best decision.

So there is considerable freedom to act within the Catholic moral framework, given that the intent of the one acting is in the spirit of Catholic moral teaching and for the greater glory of God. This is where a “faithful SSA Catholic” – or any faithful Catholic – can become mightily confused. It is expected that people of good will will disagree on many matters governed by “prudential judgment”.

Having this “externally imposed” moral structure does not relieve the Catholic of making moral decisions for himself. On the contrary, in very real ways, it forces him to do so. And it is when a person is compelled to make moral decisions contrary to his personal will or physical appetites that, as a person, he asserts those qualitites of his human being – namely reason and rational will – which distinguish himself from the rest of the created world. Therefore, rather than robbing a Christian of his human dignitiy and self-determination, the Church actually demands it and provides us with the best means of achieving it.

 

This thread is definitely worth a read for those of us who are feeling alone and conflicted.

Identity and what defines us 24 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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Today in my wordpress browsing, I came across a blog where the post of the day discussed how homosexual relationships had higher compatibility than heterosexual relationships. You can read Pat’s post here…

Here is my response

Your post is tending to say “Gay relationships are highly driven by sex” which then implies they do not really have any long lasting deep emotional connections.

I am an SSA man, but I don’t have that same sex drive, and if anything, I see in myself a higher level of EQ than some men. And for me, I am looking for that deep emotional attachment in a relationship first and foremost.

Also, I know lots of straight men who don’t have the voracious appetites for sexual pleasure that you say men have. And they have deep emotional attachment to their wives. I will accept this is not as common, but it does exist.

Additionally, I feel your comment on Gays and Lesbians considered as ethnic groups as further isolating homosexual people. Ethnic ghettos are bad news, you can see this experience all over the world. If people don’t mix out there in the world, we tend to be blinkered, and very limited in our thoughts and experiences. How can we understand one another if we stay on our side, and they stay on theirs, and never interact? This even goes on inside the homosexual community, with gays discriminating against lesbians, and even worse, amongst themselves.

And perhaps this is why I prefer to use SSA (Same-Sex-Attracted) rather than gay in describing myself, because gay has become, like you say, an ethnicity. There is too much baggage. I am attracted to men. Period. The rest is superfluous, a stereotype and lifestyle that people are brainwashed into thinking they must subscribe to. I am a lot more than my SSA. It doesn’t define who I am, it is merely a part of my human complexity.

Yes, it hasn’t been easy for homosexual people in the past, and we have needed a loud voice to be heard and get the rights and freedoms that have been hard won to date, but it is now time for homosexual people to evaluate what is happening now.

We have been fighting for equality, for the right to live the same as anyone else in society, but now we are tending to exclusivity, isolation, and separation from everyone else through the “gay” lifestyle.

Shouldn’t we be looking to build on our victories, and instead continue to strive for acceptance, and to be integrated into our heterogeneous world.

And just to avoid misinterpretation:
Heterogeneous: diverse in character or content.

In my opinion, sexual orientation does not define us, but rather is just a part of our human complexity.

Apart from this, there is the separation, segregation, isolation and exclusion of anyone else who does not belong to the lifestyle. Pat says

“Gays and lesbians can be considered ethnic groups. As such, we share a certain humor, culture and experience. We are drawn together and made stronger as a group by social marginalization. Homosexual relationships can benefit from this by having more in common with each other.”

Isolation is not an answer to marginalisation. It can only make things worse. This idea that gays and lesbians are an ethnic group seems dangerous to me. This “ghettofication” only serves to further widen the chasm between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

What do you think?

 

 

Homosexuality – Catholic vs Protestant reactions 22 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in Stories, homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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I know, this is now post number 4 for today. But after speaking to my friend tonight, I felt motivated to write. I apologise if it seems I tar all Protestant churches with same brush; I do not seek to single them out, but rather, I am trying to relate the story of a brother in Christ, and his personal battle with SSA in his Christian life.

I have always thought of all religions to have a hostile stance towards homosexual people, but tonight I realise that the Catholic Church actually has compassion for people with SSA. 

In my reading on this topic, I have been made aware of organisations who are there to cure SSA people of their homosexuality and put them on the “straight” path so to speak. These ex-gay organisations use agressive therapy to cure. Some that come to mind are Exodus International, NARTH, Courage.

While these organisations seem well intentioned, I believe they are treading dangerous ground. The jury is not out on what causes SSA, so any applied therapy is at best a stab in the dark, and the possible ramifications of these attempted conversions on SSA persons is unknown. It could cause possible mental, emotional and spiritual damage, and have possible repercussions on future heterosexual partners and families.

I will direct you at this point to have a read of this article on John Heard’s site Dreadnought, which outlines the Catechism relating to homosexuality. John has covered it well so I won’t repeat it all here. But I will pull out some salient points. 

“2357 … It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.”

To date, there is no conclusion as to where SSA originates from. Is it genetic? Nature or Nurture? 2357 shows that the Catholic church acknowledges there is currently no answer, and thus is not attempting to draw conclusions from where no data exists.

“2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

“2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”

These two sections show that the Catholic Church’s acknowledges SSA does exist, and calls for compassion, dignity and respect towards people who are SSA. They call for a life of chastity, but no where are they calling for the SSA person to submit themselves to psychotherapy or other forms of conversion.

My friend comes from the Protestant tradition, and is currently having a hard time from his church. He has experienced what I believe to be terribly un-Christian behaviour. He has been thrown out of a number of churches on suspicion of being homosexual (even though he was not actively seeking a homosexual lifestyle, and from my conversations with him, he has not even participated in a homosexual act to date).

Lately, he has sought counsel from his pastor, and is now being asked to submit to ex-gay therapy for conversion to a “straight” life. And although he has served in a ministry with dignity and the faith of Christ, because he refuses to submit to this therapy, he is now barred from any service in ministry.

I cannot believe this has happened! Jesus came for everyone, not just the virtuous. Judgement is reserved for the Lord God alone, and we are expected to show charity, compassion and mercy to our brothers and sisters on this earth.

This is one area that highlights the differences between Catholic and Protestant traditions. It makes me feel happy that I am a Catholic, and sad that we cannot as Christians unite in living as Jesus taught us.

The hope of eternal life through Christ
I will finish with a quote near the end of John’s post, as I feel it gives real hope to SSA Catholics and Christians in knowing that a life lived in celibacy is not necessarily a life sentance of isolation and loneliness:

“Indeed, depending on the strength of one’s will-power (and the Church does not expect men to be perfect, only to try as hard as humanly possible to be so) such a teaching could even leave room for deeply intense, passionate friendships, boyfriends and male with male unions.”

What is in a relationship? 22 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in Stories, homosexuality, relationships, same sex attraction.
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This post started from a conversation I had with Lindsey (from *! [emphatic asterisk]). Thank you for starting me off! To everyone else reading, I am sorry it is long, but it is a complicated issue.

In all of the current “Gay Marriage” debate, there is a lot of discourse on what marriage is, and what a relationship is. Even the church’s all weigh in with views, denouncing homosexual relationships as disordered. I am in no way arguing for gay marriage (though I do believe in legal rights to protect a same-sex-couple financially for example).

I would like to share my insight into what a homosexual relationship can be. 

When I was 22 I met my soulmate. He was a lot of firsts for me. (He was not my first kiss, but he was my second! ;-)

It started on gay.com of all places. I don’t mean to be judgmental, but it is not the nicest of places. People tend to cruise there for random fun. It’s just not my thing. But that night, it all seemed it was a chance by design. I was about to give up for the evening, maybe for a while. I had just not had any luck finding someone for months and months. But like quitting smoking, I was going to quit it tomorrow :-P  Then someone in the chat room piped up: “Someone, say something!”

And I did. And there was every chance that I might not have met him. I might have closed the window before he replied. The internet connection might have dropped out (dial-up in those days). Who knows. But it did happen.

And after a few weeks chatting online, then on the phone, we finally met. That day I was so nervous, but at the end, I thought I had met my soulmate. He was going to be with me forever. From that day had begun my spiritual bond.

Over the 5 years, our relationship was also sexual, but because of our secretive circumstances, it wasn’t a constant. And not that it mattered much to me. What else I had was wonderful. His presence was with me, even when we were not together. We talked all the time. We spent a lot of time on drives together, holidays together. He shared my circle of friends. He loved my family, especially my mother, and I loved his family too. We went to dinner at all different places, saw movies, theatre, symphony and opera together. We snuggled on the couch together, we kissed. On our holidays away, I slept next to him, I woke next to him. We cooked together, we ate together. We watched TV together after dinner. I was teaching him to drive a manual.

Because we both lived at home with our respective parents, we couldn’t always enjoy physical aspects to our relationship (and physical does not just mean sex). But I still felt close to him all the while. I would wake in the morning with him on my mind, and go to sleep thinking about him. I’d text him on my way to work, and he’d text back when he got a chance. We planned our future together. We wanted a vegetable garden. We wanted a dog. We enjoyed our escapes to the Blue Mountains, and he loved to go bushwalking. 

While now that has all come to a sudden end, it did exist at the time. 

When it ended, that close connection was severed. The pain and the loss, it was excruciating. There was no communication, and I never knew exactly why it ended, though there was someone in the middle, that much I knew. I spent my time cyber-stalking, piecing fact together from clues. In the end what I learned showed him to be a stranger to me. That hurt even more than the sudden end. It broke all my trust. For me, it was like he had died. I had lost him forever. The extent to which he had changed is dramatic. Even though he still exists on this planet, my first love is dead. 

Where does this leave me today?

The Catholic Church is apparently quite explicit about how it views homosexuality/same-sex-attraction. It states the homo-genital act is sinful, and homosexuality is “intrinsically disordered”. It calls SSA Catholics to a life of celibacy, much the same as for single heterosexual people, and heterosexual couples before marriage. 

Since the breakup, I will admit, I have lost interest for sexual intimacy. It was never that important to me. What is more important to me is the companionship, the closeness of bond one has with a partner. The bible talks about different love, and I can state there is different love in our lives. My parents love me, like no other. My sister loves me too, like no other. My friends love me dearly too. And above all, God loves me, unconditionally. And my partner loved me. And though there was all this love, each love was different.

It is in our human design, that we are meant to have that bond, to become one with another. That does not change even for homosexual people. I am not interested in the sleazy sex that is often assoscated with the stereotypical gay community, a different night, a different guy (or perhaps more than one!). The same pattern I just mentioned can also be said for heterosexual men. The Church doesn’t do much jumping about that though, do they?

I am a monogamous guy. I want that one to share my life with. The love that two people share in a relationship is so different than that experienced anywhere. As with “straight” people, it is every bit as deep and meaningful for “gay” people. 

While I am now seriously considering a celibate lifestyle, I can’t see that I wouldn’t be allowed to hug or kiss another man. Since it is not a sin for premarital kissing and hugging in a heterosexual relationship, I don’t see that as being sinful in a homosexual relationship. Hugging and kissing are socially acceptable modes of communication in any case, that are expressed daily, in public with all manner of people. A peck on the cheek in greeting, a quick kiss on the lips goodbye as ones partner departs on a business trip, or a comforting hug for one who is in pain.

The biggest question for me is, am I ever going to find someone who would feel the same, who could feel complete in the closeness we would have together, even without the sexual act? And if that person is out there, and we did live together chastely for the rest of our lives, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, supporting and loving one another, contributing to our community and working to live out our Catholic faith, does God really condemn that as a sinful, disordered life? 

God did create Eve for Adam, so that he would not be alone. By that, it is intrinsically a human need for a life companion. In my case however, I was created as I am, with a same-sex-attraction, and though that be the case, it has not absolved my human need for that other person.

 

More stories 19 May 2008

Posted by sydcatholic80 in Uncategorized.
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Hi all.

Still googling, or browsing through wordpress sites, I have found another raw, honest blog about a gay Christian, and how they are dealing with their life.

http://corey61.wordpress.com/

I will post the links here to posts I have read from him:

Ex-gay…or not?

I Choose Celibacy

SWM – Single White Male

I can identify with the emotions Corey has honestly shared in his stories. I must say, having read these I can see I have a long way to go yet in finding true peace, but at least I know I am on the right path.

Corey lives alone, and this raises the question: Can two SSA people live together, sharing their lives, and still have a life that is good in God’s eyes? Does God expect SSA people to live alone without a partner at all?

From all the literature available, it seems it is only the homosexual act that is sinful. To me this leaves open the possibility that two SSA people can live together, and love each other, and as long as both can agree and strive to remain celibate, this relationship would not be regarded as sinful.

Also another grey area is kissing. In regular relationships, people are not expected to refrain from kissing before they are married. So it seems reasonable to me, that two SSA people kissing are not committing a sin. If this is considered sinful, why? Does this mean all other heterosexual couples who engage in premarital kissing are likewise guilty of sin?

 

I turn this over to you…